NSS Weekly: Big Data Centers: Weighing the Pros and Cons

Transcript

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INTRO: You are listening to North Star Stories: Voices from Where We Live, a newscast about what it means to live in Minnesota, produced by AMPERS, with support from the McKnight Foundation and the State of Minnesota.

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HOST: This is North Star Stories: Voices from Where We Live. I'm Gracie J.

This week, schools across Minnesota are making headlines, with proposals for a pilot video surveillance program, security threats, and new data for state graduation rates. In northern Minnesota, a tribal college receives a historic gift that will shape its future. Meanwhile, at the state Capitol, advocates, families, and state leaders gathered for Murdered and Missing Black Women and Girls Day on the Hill.

In this week's program, we look at the benefits and drawbacks of data centers and hear from Minnesota's farmers about how global politics are playing out across the state's farmlands.

But first, lawmakers want to keep guns and knives out of schools, and some say Artificial Intelligence, or AI, can help do it. The House Public Safety Committee debated a $4 million pilot program that would use AI-powered surveillance cameras to scan for weapons outside school buildings. The technology is supposed to detect or "see" concealed weapons through backpacks or jackets, with a combination of Wi-Fi and A-I technology. Supporters say the cameras would stop threats before they get inside school doors.

DR. TIMOTHY CHILDS: By combining these two technologies, we can search for seen and unseen weapons.

HOST: However, some lawmakers are concerned that this technology is still experimental and AI has a history of misidentifying weapons, as well as an inherent bias against students of color.

KHULIA PRINGLE: Predictive AI can only use past data. It cannot innovate. This means bias can only be scaled, not corrected.

HOST: If the funding for the pilot program passes, cameras would be set up in eight schools across the state, with results in early 2027.

As lawmakers debate how to keep schools safe, several schools across the state cancelled classes because of threats and cyber-attacks. Now, three students at Willmar Middle School, in central Minnesota, are under arrest and facing felony charges. Police say the students left a threatening note in a school bathroom. The note forced schools to close.

But there is some good news from Minnesota's high schools. The graduating seniors of the class of 20-25 set a state record. The state says 84.9 percent of seniors earned their diplomas in four years, up from 84.2 percent the year before.

Red Lake Nation College received a $7 million gift, the largest in the college's 25-year history. College leaders announced the creation of a new, permanent endowment that will end a cycle of poverty for the college and its students. The tribal college received the unrestricted gift from Mackenzie Scott, who is a major philanthropist known for giving billions to nonprofits and schools through her Yield-giving Foundation. She made her fortune as the first wife to Amazon Founder Jeff Bezos. College leaders say the endowment reflects Ojibwe teachings about looking seven generations ahead and the money will build long-term financial stability and help serve future generations of Red Lake Nation students. The two-year college has campuses in Red Lake and Minneapolis.

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Next, for the past few years, proposals to build technology data centers have drawn the attention of lawmakers and constituents across Minnesota. Reporter Jose Ozoria examines the benefits and drawbacks these massive infrastructure investments can bring to a community.

REBECCA GILBERTSON: There are wetlands, woodlands, two trout streams and the Canadian national main line. And so residents who have lived here, some for their entire lives, question the location.

JOSE OZORIA: Rebecca Gilbertson is a resident of Hermantown. She lives about a half mile from a proposed hyperscale data center. Rebecca says that the choice for the proposed Hermantown Location is highly questionable.

REBECCA GILBERTSON: Minnesota has some of the most pristine waterways in the United States, and this area is no exception for that. So like the trout streams, plural, the location is in between two trout streams. So the trout streams are an example of that.

JOSE OZORIA: Rebecca also notes that the zoning for this project does not fully account for the impact on residents.

REBECCA GILBERTSON: If they were to sort of zone industrial, the immediate area is not industrial, so it's in a really unique geographic location. And beyond this, it's still rural residential. And so the zoning, literally, it's like plunking an industrial zone right in the middle of what would be considered rural residential.

JOSE OZORIA: So data centers are facilities that house computers, IT infrastructure and storage systems enabling modern digital operations, cloud computing and artificial intelligence. Data center development is at the forefront of many people's minds throughout the state. Those in favor of data centers point out the economic benefit for the state's workforce and tax base. Those who oppose the construction of these facilities point to the potential environmental impact and the political means by which some of these facilities were proposed and approved.

JASON MOECKE: So our role is a regulatory responsibility, and fundamentally that's to ensure that water that is used for any kind of a project in the state of Minnesota is used sustainably.

JOSE OZORIA: Jason Moecke is the Assistant Division Director for Ecological and Water Resources. Jason points out that Minnesota has a methodical process for evaluating proposed use and the impact of any project.

JASON MOECKE: And by definition, in Minnesota statute, that means that we're protecting ecosystems. We're maintaining water for future generations, that we are protecting the water levels of our aquifers, rivers and so forth, and then we're not degrading water quality.

JOSE OZORIA: While there are concerns regarding the massive water consumption associated with data centers, Jason says there are standards and tools already in place to monitor the impact a data center would have in any particular region.

JASON MOECKE: So from a water use perspective, we do have the current practices, review processes are adequate, and we have the tools that we need. The tools that we use for a data center are the same tools we use for agricultural irrigation project.

NAT SOUND (Carver County City Council): All those in favor say aye. Aye. Opposed. Motion passes.

JOSE OZORIA: That's Carver City Council voting to hit the brakes on its version of what are now fast-moving data center projects appearing throughout Minnesota. The goal is to halt these projects so that city leaders can better understand the impact these facilities would have.

ERIN SMITH: Some folks are really excited. Some folks don't want them anywhere near their community. So it's going to be interesting to watch, but it gives us that time to take in that information, see what other cities are doing, and then create an approach that feels appropriate for Carver specifically.

JOSE OZORIA: Erin Smith, Community Development Director for the City of Carver. During the Carver City Council meeting, Ms. Smith explains why Minnesota's prime real estate for these massive facilities.

ERIN SMITH: So there's obviously a growth in AI. The Minnesota climate lends itself to work well for data centers, since we have a chiller climate for what feels like most of the year on this April night. So less cooling can be required. We also have available land grand groundwater utilities, and then there's also some state tax incentives.

JOSE OZORIA: Data center proposals have been moving ahead quickly in Minnesota, with over 20 potential sites across the state. The largest hyperscale data centers can consume millions of gallons of water and use as much electricity as the entire City of Minneapolis. Along with the environmental concerns, there have been growing concerns regarding companies gaining local tax breaks and other economic development initiatives using non-disclosure agreements with local officials. Non-disclosure agreements are commonly used legal contracts, used often by technology companies negotiating with local officials to keep development projects, site, locations and infrastructure details from the public until the project has been green lit.

EMMA GREEMAN: What this bill does do is say that you cannot circumvent chapter 13 and their transparency requirements with secret agreements and secret meetings worked out behind the public's back.

JOSE OZORIA: Representative Emma Greenman of T-Town says these NDAs erode trust in government and argues the lack of transparency makes the issue around data center development a larger issue.

EMMA GREENMAN: Whether you like data centers, we're talking about people elected or appointed or hired to represent the public, making these secret agreements and information, keeping information from the public for the benefit of the corporation.

JOSE OZORIA: Minnesota Republicans and Democrats in the state legislature have come together behind this bill that would prohibit local government officials from signing non-disclosure agreements with corporate giants demanding them.

EMMA GREENMAN: This bill doesn't touch any of the laws I mentioned. It simply prohibits local governments from entering into private agreements that could undermine public trust.

JOSE OZORIA: Meanwhile, environmental and grassroots community groups are calling on lawmakers to pass a two-year moratorium on hyperscale data center development statewide. For North Star stories, I'm Jose Ozoria.

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HOST: As communities across Minnesota continue debating data center construction, other organizations and institutions are working to narrow the gap between what data centers can bring and what communities actually want. To learn more, we're joined now by Professor James W. Coleman, an energy law scholar at the University of Minnesota. He specializes in North American energy infrastructure, transport and trade. Thank you so much for joining us today.

PROFESSOR JAMES W. COLEMAN: It's great to be here.

HOST: Why does Minnesota need data centers?

PROFESSOR JAMES W. COLEMAN: Well, I don't think that Minnesota necessarily needs data centers, and it's simply a question for the individual communities to decide whether some of the economic benefits of the data centers are worth some of the resources that those data centers potentially take. It's important to understand, Minnesota is not one of the leading states for data center construction, but it certainly could get some of the economic benefit of that if it wanted to, because we do have space in our grid, better access to water than many states, and so it's a possibility. So we are sort of in the mainstream of a trend that we're seeing across the United States. And really, I don't think there's any question that Minnesota is not going to become the leading state for data centers.

HOST: What are the biggest concerns from residents and local officials about where these data centers are being built, especially in rural or environmentally sensitive areas?

PROFESSOR JAMES W. COLEMAN: You know, they don't use very much land for how much revenue they bring in. On the other hand, they do use, you know, relatively maybe less water than some kinds of industrial projects like meat processing or something, but they use, but they do use substantial water, and cities usually manage their own water wastewater services. And so they're going to have to figure out whether that sort of fits into their infrastructure, or whether they would need upgrades, and whether that new facility could help them pay for those upgrades. And then I think on the electricity side, there's a big question about really the impact of these data centers on other customers. It kind of all depends on how much they pay for that electricity, because electricity is a strange market, because usually you're paying a regulated rate for electricity, which means that everybody who pays electricity bills basically ensures that the whole grid is paid for. And so when you bring in a new big electricity user, you need to have more electricity for them, but at the same time, they're going to pay a lot of money, and if they pay enough money, that can actually stabilize rates for the other customers, or even lower rates. But if they don't pay enough money, then that could then everybody else's rates could go up. And so it's a complicated question, and it really depends on how you integrate them.

HOST: What should lawmakers prioritize first, attracting more data center development or putting stronger limits in place to protect water, land and local communities?

PROFESSOR JAMES W. COLEMAN: I work with a team at the University of Minnesota, and our real focus is on trying to create a toolkit that helps those local decision makers decide what they want to do, because their decisions are really going to depend on how much they prioritize having some industry in town that brings in money, how much, how much they need that extra tax revenue versus how much they're concerned about land use, water use, the esthetics of these buildings, et cetera. And I think every community will have different views. So that's why the goal of our project that we're doing with an interdisciplinary team here at the University of Minnesota is, let's try and just give some explanation to local communities so they can make their own decision based on what they want, with better information about some of the challenges that these facilities might create for them. Some of the things that they should, you know, the things scenarios that they might be worried about or want to protect against, and some of the opportunities that it provides and what they can ask for in terms of, you know, a better deal for these data center projects.

HOST: Is it available to the public?

PROFESSOR JAMES W. COLEMAN: Yes, we are doing it under a grant from the Institute on the Environment at the University of Minnesota, and you can find some information about it online through the Institute on the Environment. And then we will be releasing our toolkit this summer. We're currently in the midst of a number of workshops that we're doing with communities in southeast Minnesota, and the sort of public documents that anyone can access will be available this summer.

HOST: Well, thank you so much for your time.

PROFESSOR JAMES W. COLEMAN: Great. It's great to be here.

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HOST: After the break, how global conflicts and federal economic policies are impacting Minnesota's farmers
This is North Star Stories: Voices from Where We Live, produced by AMPERS with support from the McKnight Foundation and the State of Minnesota. We'll be right back.

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HOST: You are listening to North Star Stories. I'm Gracie J. In other news from across the state…

[RAMSEY COUNTY SHERIFF BOB FLETCHER: "There is no such thing as absolute immunity for federal agents."]

HOST: Ramsey County officials are investigating whether federal agents could face kidnapping, burglary, or false imprisonment charges after the January detention of a Hmong American citizen in Saint Paul. Ramsey County is part of the Minneapolis-Saint Paul metropolitan area and where Chongly "Scott" Thao lived. Officials say federal immigration agents battered in Thao's door without a warrant, pulled him from his home in freezing weather in only underwear, sandals, and a blanket, put him in their car, and drove around while questioning him for an hour.

RAMSEY COUNTY ATTORNEY JOHN CHOI: We believe that there was no legitimate legal reason for the federal agents to enter that home.

HOST: Ramsey County Attorney John Choi says officials are actively investigating two cases, including Thao's, and looking into three other possible cases. County Attorney Choi is urging people with a similar experience to report it to local police. He says his office will connect people with legal and support services. In a statement to North Star Stories, ICE says it does not kidnap people, and the agents took Thao because he wouldn't submit to fingerprinting and facial identification. They also called the investigations a political stunt to demonize ICE agents.

Early this month marked the second annual Missing and Murdered Black Women and Girls Day on the Hill. Advocates, families and state leaders gathered at Minnesota's Capitol to raise awareness about the disproportionate violence black women face, and honor more than 80 black women who have been killed in Minnesota domestic violence cases since the 1980s. Black women make up about 7 percent of Minnesota's population, but account for 40 percent of domestic violence victims. Minnesota's office of Missing and Murdered Black Women and Girls director Kaleena Burkes says it's important to hold space for impacted families.

KALEENA BURKES: Oftentimes with black and women, black women and girls, this, it feels like they're going through this crisis and they're invisible. But this gives them a moment to be recognized, to let their families know that we still care and let their name live on.

HOST: According to official state data, black women and girls are nearly three times as likely to be murdered than white women and girls.

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HOST: Next, as spring arrives, Minnesota farmers are preparing for their busy season. But this year brings new challenges to an already difficult job. Reporter frankie felegy talked to some local farmers about the serious challenges they're facing this spring planting season and the search for solutions.

JENNA UNTIEDT: People are losing their equipment. They're losing their farms because they can't make their yearly payments on their operating lines. So you get one more thing added to it, one more expense. It's just all that more challenging and all that more frustrating.

FRANKIE FELEGY: Jenna Untiedt with Untied Vegetable Farm is talking about rising fuel and fertilizer prices. She handles retail for her family farm in Waverly, Minnesota, about 40 miles west of the Twin Cities, and though thousands of miles away, she and other farmers are seeing effects from the US and Israel's war on Iran. A major Iranian trade waterway, the Strait of Hormuz, is in the middle of that conflict. The Minnesota Corn Growers Association says the conflict is increasing fertilizer costs to a new record and that there aren't immediate solutions. That means widespread farmers, including Minnesotans like Untiedt, are asking if their necessary fertilizers and fuel will make it home, and at what cost.

JENNA UNTIEDT: We're seeing an increase in fuel prices. We are seeing the likelihood of not getting certain fertilizers or chemicals, often because they come from overseas. You know, we can, we can absorb some of it, but we just can't continue to absorb everything.

FRANKIE FELEGY: Untiedt says her family farm, which provides the Minnesota State Fair with all its corn, has seen prices increase overall in the past two years. Increased tariffs and prices affect everything at the farm, tractors, shipping trucks, they all take fuel. Untiedt says her family is having conversations about uncertain access to the chemicals and fertilizers they need. There could be product delays, she said, quoted prices might change as the conflict does. And her vegetable farm isn't alone. Dan Zimmerli farms with Cedar Crate Farm in Waldorf, Minnesota, between Mankato and Albert Lea. Zimmerli says there's always uncertainty in farming, mostly around weather, which he says has gotten more unpredictable and severe lately. But over the past couple months and years, uncertainty over the economy has grown.

DAN ZIMMERLI: That's very messy. It's basically what it is.

FRANKIE FELEGY: At his vegetable farm, he's seeing gas prices rise, which affects home delivery and getting their products to market. Minnesota's average fuel costs have risen over 60 cents a gallon from a year ago, AAA says. Zimmerli isn't seeing massive war impacts on his small farm, like his brother and dad, who grow corn and soybeans commercially, but he worries his organic practices could become competitive soon. There's just a lot of unknowns.

DAN ZIMMERLI: If the fertilizer prices for kind of the more common synthetic stuff gets so far out of control that it makes the organic stuff more compelling, you know that could potentially drive up my fertilizer costs in the future.

FRANKIE FELEGY: But his biggest concern right now with prices increasing for Minnesotans, not just farmers, local food demand could slow.

DAN ZIMMERLI: It can be like cost competitive with, you know, the imported stuff. And so I'm worried about the overall kind of autonomy and how basically eaters and consumers are feeling about shopping at farmers markets and buying local kind of going into this season with, you know, higher gas prices for everybody.

FRANKIE FELEGY: Wes Beck, farmer and president of the Minnesota Corn Growers Association, says everyone's pockets are struggling right now, and we're all part of the food system, he says.

WES BECK: Whether you're a supplier to a farmer like myself or the farmer producing commodities and livestock that will eventually end up on the consumers table, it's just a matter of where we fit in and how we how we look at that, but we are.

FRANKIE FELEGY: We all eat every day and that food has to come from somewhere. It's a busy time of year for farmers who already have plenty on their plates.

JANAKI FISHER-MERRITT: For me, it's one of my least favorite times a year. All that anxiety is there but just being able to actually get out and do a bunch of work isn't quite there yet.

FRANKIE FELEGY: Janaki Fisher-Merritt owns Food Farm. He's south of Duluth, 20 some miles. They grow and sell certified organic produce directly to consumers and local businesses. Fisher-Merritt is also seeing fuel costs rise, which makes a difference for van deliveries and tractor costs and politics are always changing.

JANAKI FISHER-MERRITT: The trucking and shipping cost for all that stuff really is, it is going to hurt if this stuff continues, if our costs all of a sudden escalate substantially, that's a worry. But it's not a make or break thing for us at this point, but definitely something in the back of my mind.

FRANKIE FELEGY: It's times like these that remind him of the importance of ultra local food, food that comes from our own counties and state in an ultra-global world, he says.

JANAKI FISHER-MERRITT: It seems like any time these larger global events kind of ramp up the level of uncertainty, I guess that really does kind of trigger people's awareness in local food and local farming.

FRANKIE FELEGY: Fisher-Merritt says global food insecurity does drive demand for local organic food. Consumers know where their produce comes from and that they can reasonably rely on it.

JANAKI FISHER-MERRITT: That whole sense of stability, that like, okay, like there can be all kinds of nasty stuff going on in the world, but like we're taking care of ourselves here.

FRANKIE FELEGY: Taking care of ourselves, farmer Fisher Merritt says, means taking care of their communities, their land and their food as best they can. For North Star Stories, I'm frankie felegy.

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HOST: Well, to learn more about how farmers across Minnesota are responding to this challenging year, we're joined by Anne Schwagerl, Vice President of the Minnesota Farmers Union, a member-driven organization serving farm families and rural communities. She and her husband own a diversified grain and livestock farm in Big Stone County. Thank you so much for joining us today, Anne.

ANNE SCHWAGERL: Yeah, it's great to be here. Thank you.

HOST: So diesel prices are extremely high right now. How are those costs affecting farmers, day to day operations?

ANNE SCHWAGERL: Yeah, on my farm, I filled up my diesel pickup and paid over $5 a gallon for diesel. Is the highest I've ever paid. We're looking at a 2026 growing season, even when we were doing our books and our projections over the winter with very tight or underwater margins for many of our crops as a result of the trade war and the loss of international markets caused by it, now this like spike in input costs as a direct result of the war in Iran is really disheartening. As a farmer, going into spring planting season, it's a really, farmers are really optimistic always, every year, that we're going to plant something and we're going to have a nice, big crop to bring home and sell the market. It's just tough this year with kind of looking at the financial realities.

HOST: When it comes to next season's prices and availability, what are farmers most worried about?

ANNE SCHWAGERL: I think it's not just next season, it's that next generation. You know, there are young folks who are, who would love to get into the industry, and they're looking at the economics of it right now and saying, "No thanks, I'll take that town job," because it doesn't make any sense to gamble this much money and your blood, sweat and tears. It's a lifestyle for sure, and to have negative margins and not really much of an outlook for when that's going to get better. That's what we're hearing from our members, is, when is that next generation going to be able to take over the farm?

HOST: You know, farmers are concerned about fertilizer industry consolidation. What impact does having only a few major suppliers have?

ANNE SCHWAGERL: Minnesota Farmers Union is advocating for more distributed production of our fertilizers in that we can utilize new green technologies to make things like green ammonia and green fertilizer, green urea, using off peak wind energy, have it be owned by our own cooperatives, rather than multinational corporations. That keeps that wealth within Minnesota and our rural communities and rural economies.

HOST: You know, I've also heard state legislators talk about local nitrogen production. Is this a solution for Minnesota farmers?

ANNE SCHWAGERL: It's absolutely a solution for Minnesota farmers, and it's something that it's not just even in pilot scale. There is opportunities for this to be at production scale. A lot of the work being researched and done right here in Minnesota. And there are projects that are getting to be scale level, projects that can actually produce our own green fertilizer right here in the state. Yeah, there's a huge opportunity.

HOST: Well, thank you so much for talking with us, and that's all the time we have.

ANNE SCHWAGERL: Thank you for inviting me.

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HOST: And Wes Burdine, owner of the Black Hart of St. Paul, a self-described queer soccer bar, is the first recipient of a new community leadership honor from German soccer club FC St. Pauli. The bar is more than a place for soccer fans. It serves as an inclusive space for the queer community and a base for support efforts tied to immigration enforcement. Burdine said in a social media post, our job—

WES BURDINE: Is to create community and to bring communities together, the queer communities, soccer communities and the Twin Cities, and this means a lot to us.

HOST: FC St. Pauli is a first division German club and says the Peace Prize is meant to recognize everyday heroes and support people who make a real difference in their communities.

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HOST: This is it for today's program. If you missed any part of today's newscast, you can find this and past episodes at AMPERS.org, or listen to the podcast wherever you get your podcasts. You can also get North Star Stories Daily on our website or check your favorite station's schedule. Thanks for listening, and we'll be back next week with more stories and voices from the North Star State.

OUTRO: North Star Stories is produced by AMPERS, diverse radio for Minnesota's communities, with support from the McKnight Foundation and the State of Minnesota. Online at AMPERS.org.